ICANN - No more domain privacy for you

1st Official Post

    If this passes it will affect everyone, everywhere...

    Source: namecheap.com

    This is actually a good change.


    German sites have to have a legal notice (called "impressum") stating contact information - yes, this means your real address. I have never understood why other jurisdictions allow you to have commercial websites without the need to provide the information who stands behind it (in fact, it made me angry quite some time that I could not tell who was behind certain websites that have paid servies...).


    This is good for transparency. Privacy is good, but not if you just use it to hide behind it. Conducting business without providing your real contact info is just bad business. No commercial website should be without that information.

    "A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" — Leonard Nimoy

    Like 6
    • Official Post

    I would never have used such a service myself. If you are using Whois Privacy you do not own your domain. The company providing the privacy does, as it is the one that's the Owner-C of a domain. And now imagine this company goes bankrupt or decides to screw you over.

    That's not how it work.


    Quote from TimWolla

    I would never have used such a service myself. If you are using Whois Privacy you do not own your domain. The company providing the privacy does, as it is the one that's the Owner-C of a domain. And now imagine this company goes bankrupt or decides to screw you over.

    They only proxy as an advocate for public listing... ie... The same way the telephone company proxies your number as "private" or "unavailable" when you make a call with a private number.


    The owner still listed within the register is still you. ;)

    Edited once, last by Aslan ().

    I'd like them to clearly redefine "commercial activity".



    Quote from Netzwerg

    This is actually a good change.


    German sites have to have a legal notice (called "impressum") stating contact information - yes, this means your real address. I have never understood why other jurisdictions allow you to have commercial websites without the need to provide the information who stands behind it (in fact, it made me angry quite some time that I could not tell who was behind certain websites that have paid servies...).


    This is good for transparency. Privacy is good, but not if you just use it to hide behind it. Conducting business without providing your real contact info is just bad business. No commercial website should be without that information.


    I understand your point of view... If I'm spending money to buy goods and services, I too want to know who I'm dealing with.


    However... Here in America the laws are so screwy that you're almost insane not to incorporate your website. And your website may not be conducting any business at all (nothing for sale). But because it is now technically an entity, you're technically now conducting "commercial activity" (being incorporated)


    So someone like me who simply wanted privacy protection as an added level of privacy and security... To protect me from all the crazy folk out there from harassing me ... Would be lost.

    I also welcome such change. I don't trust websites when their domain's Whois is not transparent and I can't see who's behind that site.


    And I had quite a few experiences where it would have helped to know who owns a domain. At least an email address for contacting purposes should be obligatory anyway.

    Quote from Aslan

    And your website may not be conducting any business at all (nothing for sale).

    You do not need to sell something to conduct business. Having for example ads on your website means you have the clear goal to generate income - which is a clear indication of a business.


    I have never been afriend of all this hiding nonsense. If you want to have a web site and publish something, stay for it with your name. That is how print media works for centuries. You can not sell a news paper, give out brochures and flyers or else without stating who you are, clearly visible on the print medium. In germany, a "letter to the editor" is not publsihed in a news paper unless you provide your full contact information, and your name will be published along with it. Those rules exist for a reason. If never understood why we should throw that over board when it comes to the internet. At least as far as your own website concerns, where you are the publisher. It's different for forum post and comments etc. ofc, but for your own website? Add your name and contact info to it. Transparency is as important as privacy, and in the case of a website, i'm all for transparency, at least in terms of who owns it / contact info.

    "A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" — Leonard Nimoy

    Like 1

    There have been a few times when I thought it would be valuable and helpful to know who is behind a site. But there has also been a few times when I've been very thankful for anonymity.


    Quote from lookapanda

    I also welcome such change. I don't trust websites when their domain's Whois is not transparent and I can't see who's behind that site.


    And I had quite a few experiences where it would have helped to know who owns a domain. At least an email address for contacting purposes should be obligatory anyway.

    I would assume you've never experienced dealing with crazy folk who use such information simply to harass you.


    I'm not saying I'm 100% against this change, but I am for protecting the innocent without having twist an arm or leg.

    Quote from TimWolla

    They are probably bound by the contract you made with them, though.

    Which is why it technically doesn't work as them being the owner. The contact agreement states you retain ownership and they are only listed as a proxy in the same manner as your phone number being private with the phone company.

    In the contract between you and the "proxy-company", you are the owner of the domain. But technically (not legally!) the proxy-company is the owner. This means, they can do what they want with your domain (for example redirecting it to another website). If this happens you have to contact the registrar (ICANN) and send them a copy of the contract. If you're lucky they will change the domain owner and you can undo everything. But I bet it is not as simple. You'll need a lawyer and a lot of time.


    So yes, legally you're the owner, but technically they can do what they want, because they are "officially" the owner.

    Yes, but if you're not conducting ads or subscription or selling anything... ect.. ect... You're still considered conducting business simply because you're incorporated. And with the laws in America, you're crazy (insane) not to incorporate.


    So this new policy would be a catch 22... You're screwed if you do and screwed if you don't. The system 'as is' (the way it is today), protects you and keeps you from being screwed. This new policy would remove that protection.

    Quote from Netzwerg

    You do not need to sell something to conduct business. Having for example ads on your website means you have the clear goal to generate income - which is a clear indication of a business.


    I have never been afriend of all this hiding nonsense. If you want to have a web site and publish something, stay for it with your name. That is how print media works for centuries. You can not sell a news paper, give out brochures and flyers or else without stating who you are, clearly visible on the print medium. In germany, a "letter to the editor" is not publsihed in a news paper unless you provide your full contact information, and your name will be published along with it. Those rules exist for a reason. If never understood why we should throw that over board when it comes to the internet. At least as far as your own website concerns, where you are the publisher. It's different for forum post and comments etc. ofc, but for your own website? Add your name and contact info to it. Transparency is as important as privacy, and in the case of a website, i'm all for transparency, at least in terms of who owns it / contact info.

    Yes, transparency is just as important as privacy, so you shouldn't be forced to sacrifice your privacy in the name of transparency.


    People can and do abuse other folks information and can easily use it to harass you... As I have experienced. And even if you haven't experienced the same, do you really want to open yourself up to that possibility? I don't think you should be forced to make yourself vulnerable , just so you can have a website / forum.


    I'm not saying I'm 100% against this. I do like the idea of some improved transparency. I would just like a bit of flexibility and clarification that would allow people who aren't collecting money, but looking for the incorporation for protection; to still keep their privacy for their own personal protection.

    Quote from Aslan

    And with the laws in America, you're crazy (insane) not to incorporate.

    That seems to be a problem of your jurisdiction then, not with the new ICANN rules. Maybe you should concentrate your efforts on that front and file a petition to your own politicians in order to change that?

    Quote from Aslan

    And even if you haven't experienced the same, do you really want to open yourself up to that possibility?

    As I already said, according to german law I need a legal notice ("Impressum") which states my personal information and is publicly available. This means my home adress, phone number and one way of electronic communication (mostly email). So yeah, I do not "open myself up to that possibility", I already have. By choosing to host a site I knew what I was getting into.


    Quote

    don't think you should be forced to make yourself vulnerable , just so you can have a website / forum.

    If you decide to host your own website, you made the decision to stand up for it with your name. Don't like it, don#t do it, you have the choise. A already referred to how print media is handled. Why do you think you should be allowed to publish anonymously on the web, when we have rules for decades IRL that prevent us from publishing anything printed without giving proper credit / stating contact info? I don't understand. When you want to publish a news paper, a magazine or hand out flyers in the shopping mall you need to state your contact info. Hell, even for letters to the editor you need that. Why do you think you should be able to do so on the net without stating your contact info? I simply don't understand that need. it should always be publicly visible who owns the site, who is responsible for the content on it. Besides, if you have a business, and your business owns the domain, your personal details are not stated in the WHOIS. If the domain is onwed by your business, your businesses adress is exposed in the WHOIS. This is only a problem if you own the domain privately but use it for your business.


    As I already said, in german you need a legal notice once you provide a "service". This pretty much means that you need an impressum just when having a hobby forum. And I'm very fine with that, because it is about responsibiity and taking responsibilty for what you do on the net. Privacy should never be used to hide, that only weakens the argument for when real privacy concerns are at stake. We are currently fighting over the so called "Vorratsdatenspeicherung" in germany. That is real trouble for privacy, and that is a real concern. Standing with your name for content you provide is not.


    This is ofc just my take on things. I can understand that this new regulation gives you a headache when you have been accustomed to it being different. This is a big change. I understand your concerns regarding the abuse of such information. But in germany, we are already living with that, and we manage to do that well. Then again, we have laws against the abuse of information that is provided in the legal notice that offer some protection. A good spam filter on the email address that you provide there is also needed ;) But it works. And I have yet to hear from a case where someone stood on someone elses door because he got that information from the legal notice. if that is your concern, a postal address somewhere else does wonders.

    "A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" — Leonard Nimoy

    Like 2

    You should be careful. Our legal system often becomes (usually by force or influence), everyone's legal system. ICANN being American, yet controlling the bulk majority of The Internet and rules and policies.


    Quote from Netzwerg

    That seems to be a problem of your jurisdiction then, not with the new ICANN rules. Maybe you should concentrate your efforts on that front and file a petition to your own politicians in order to change that?


    I'm thankful I'm not a citizen of Germany. ;) Your country seems to lack anonymity and thus fails to understand that value or respect of why having a private website can be important and valuable.


    Quote from Netzwerg

    If you decide to host your own website, you made the decision to stand up for it with your name.

    No, not always. Sometimes things need to be said, but they're not necessarily safe for you to associate with your name. Whistleblowing being a good example.

    Quote from Aslan

    I'm thankful I'm not a citizen of Germany. Your country seems to lack anonymity and thus fails to understand that value or respect of why having a private website can be important and valuable.

    You should think about German history.

    Linux: Born to Frag 8) :D

    Quote from Aslan

    Your country seems to lack anonymity and thus fails to understand that value or respect of why having a private website can be important and valuable.

    Our privacy laws are the best and most protective in the world. Yet sometimes we understand that transparency and displaying who is responsible for what is more important. Privacy should not be used as an excuse to hide behind anything.


    Quote from Aslan

    Whistleblowing being a good example.

    No whistleblower who is worth his salt would EVER register a site himself, not even when he can do so "anonymously".

    "A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" — Leonard Nimoy

    Quote from Netzwerg

    No whistleblower who is worth his salt would EVER register a site himself, not even when he can do so "anonymously".

    Yes they would, if that was the only means to get their information out. Because sometimes it is not safe (or allowed) for others to have something posted on their site and so it would simply be removed (censored). Sometimes doing it yourself is the only option.


    Quote from Netzwerg

    Privacy should not be used as an excuse to hide behind anything.

    If it will protect you, it is.


    Quote from netrix64

    You should think about German history.

    I have. The future demands that the past not happen, but it also demands the innocent be protected.

    Edited. Too much data.


    Many people speak about privacy only thinking in scams ("If you have nothing to hide , you have nothing to fear" and yadda yadda yadda), but many people in the world need privacy to stay alive.


    The police and judges don't need Legal Notice page and public whois, they only need to require to the hosting company the data of the administrator. If you are a scam victim you only need to go to the police and report the web.


    Legal Notice are absurd: you can use false data. For this reason the Courts do not use the legal notice page as evidence . They use legal requests (in paper) signed by hosting companies.


    I don't have any problem to sign with my hosting company and ISP any document with my data (including my identity card), but I don't accept show my private data on Internet.

    Quote from Aethior

    Legal Notice are absurd: you can use false data.

    You can't technically do that legally. There is nothing enforcing it in the way of validation, but legally you can't and shouldn't do that.

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