This is not a marketplace (?? or !!)

  • Hello,


    Sometime ago I started a thread here prefixing it with "WTS" and listing some plugins that I want to sell. Now (even if it tooks me sometime), I found it deleted with the reason "This is not a marketplace".


    So far so good. It's up to you to delete anything you want. BUT:

    • It's polite to send a notification to poster informing him about this and not letting him wondering if he really post it here or somewhere else.
    • Before posting my thread I read the Terms and Conditions. The same I did right now. Nowhere I found a paragraph mentioning that I'm breaking any rule of your TOS.
    • Last but not least. Didn't choosen any "well know" forum to attract visibility. I post it in a forum which clearly says: Drop in here to discuss whatever you want. Sorry but for my poor English "whatever you want" means ANYTHING polite. And I believe that my post was 100% polite. Otherwise I had to write pages of pages for the reason that I decided to sell them.

    Thank you for your ...welcome
    Christos Teriakis
    Software Developer since 1984, PHP Developer since 2001.
    PS: By the way I was using Burning Board since 2002 (or max 2003). That one with the yellow and black interface.

    • Official Post

    The forums always had a subset of rules specific to the usage, yet they seem to be lost during the conversion back in December. Might be a good idea to add them again.


    We do not tolerate buy/sell requests in our forums independent of the product in question. Furthermore the offtopic section had been clarified, that it is open to anything unrelated to WoltLab and our products, yet while this extra information is within the German description, I failed to carry it over when I translated the forum names and descriptions. I will try to fix this asap, that's definitely my fault and in the end might have prevented you from raising the original thread in first place.


    Yet I agree with you, that it might be better (and shows a minimum of respect towards somebody) to notify users if their threads get deleted. I will bring this up internally.


    Anyway, do you mind providing some feedback what caused your decision to downgrade the forum software?

  • Hello Alexander,


    Thank you for your prompt attention. First of all I want to make clear something very important. I don't blame anybody, I don't want to offend anybody. If my post sound this way, my apologies. Really I didn't had any bad thoughts while I was posting this thread.


    As for your request to post some feedback for my decision to downgrade the forum software. It's a bit sensitive. It's like asking someone who decided to let off his Mercedes McLaren for a Fiat Pundo. Everything depends on many factors eg fuel cost, spares replacement cost etc. It's not about features. It's about personal needs.


    Let's use my real example. I had in mind to operate my site for selling my scripts based on WBB4. Even if I was sure that I should be blamed from vBulletin users for it (strange to sell vBulletin plugins in a site operating with a different forum software), but I don't care. Really I like WBB. And I like it because it combines power and security in an easy to use interface. Maybe it miss an important for me feature, the paid subscriptions. But as I know soon this feature will be release soon.


    So, I installed it, I added my Blog, I added the BugTracker, I added the Lexicon for Manuals, but .... what about my shop? How to sell my scripts? Filebase does not supports paid downloads, Viecode Custome Area does not ready for WBB4, so nothing available for me. And if it was to add just a script for sale I had to wait. But my store should has at least 40 scripts, not say more.


    That's why I gave up this plan and I started building a community for my small town. Bought the Galler and Calendar and some other plugins for it. Don't know how to say it to be understandable without any offence. You, as WoltLab developer you expect to hear feedback for your own product(s). But the Customers are seeing this in a total different way. They're seeing it as a gloabl solution. If the site can operate or not. Sure with your products can be. But if the A and B sections of the site which are based in 3nd party plugins does not work as expected, then all the site does not works, and a professional site owner looks for another solution.


    Now, please allow me to make a background comparization. I'll not talk for the era of 2002 when except Boarning Board, only phpBB and vBulletin 2 were available. I'll talk for 2011 when for first time I bought WBB. Great chance!! Excellent solution !! Everything have been totally changed to the best in last 3 years:

    • On 2011 were only just a few threads in English. And as they're all together with the German ones, was so difficult to find them.
    • The Plugin store is so easy to navigate now and totally supports the English language. With the old one was so difficult to find the plugin and even if you found them all descriptions were in German.
    • Support in Forums: Outstanding !! Excellent !! Fast and easy to understand replies.

    So, I found your move to go international, very successfull. I'll avoid to criticize the developers here. Everybody works on his own way who he thinks that is best for him. I respect and accept it. I'll post a notice only for a part that you've a responsibility. The prices in Plugins store. Is unfair for your customers to allow any developer to sell the same product, with exact same features, in a different price that your customers can find here. And I'm not talking for small amounts. eg 51 Euros here and 36 Euros in the dev's site is a 40%+ higher price.


    That's all that I've to say. As bottom line: I'm not downgrading WBB for another forum due to missing features of the software but due to missing important for me plugin(s).


    Chris

  • So, I found your move to go international, very successfull. I'll avoid to criticize the developers here. Everybody works on his own way who he thinks that is best for him. I respect and accept it. I'll post a notice only for a part that you've a responsibility. The prices in Plugins store. Is unfair for your customers to allow any developer to sell the same product, with exact same features, in a different price that your customers can find here. And I'm not talking for small amounts. eg 51 Euros here and 36 Euros in the dev's site is a 40%+ higher price.


    Well, as a developer you have to pay a 25% provision to WoltLab. Furthermore the price in the store includes 19% VAT. Most developers are only small businesses and can sell the software without VAT in their own shops (see § 19 (1) UStG). So, if you have your own shop you can sell for 63% of the store price and still make the same profit. That's why you see such price differences bewteen the store and in shops run by the developers themselves.

    "A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" — Leonard Nimoy

  • You forgot to mention the initial fee of 50 (?) euros.


    What does that have to do with anything? That's a one time cost, the provision and VAT is what's the relevant factor for the difference. (The initial costs, e.g. for a shop, for the plugin-store and so on will be part of the price calculation in both prices).

    "A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" — Leonard Nimoy

  • That's a one time cost, yes. But i know some commercial developers, which are trying to cover this fee with a higher price for their extensions.

  • That's a one time cost, yes. But i know some commercial developers, which are trying to cover this fee with a higher price for their extensions.


    That's what every person who runs a business does. But it's not an explanation for the price difference between the Plugin-Store and a shop.


    When calculating the price of the plugin, you will at first look at the cost of the plugin itself. That's mostly determined by the hours you have to put in and how much you think your work is worth. Then after that you factor in one time costs and a calculation how long you want to wait until you have regained those one time costs. Those one time costs are costs for your infrastructure (shop, wbb license for a support plattform, the initial plugin-store fee and more). And then you take a look at how much you think the customer will want to pay (this is also determined by the prices of other plugins) and how many copies you think you'll sell over time.



    If there was no provision to WL and no VAT you'd simply sell the plugin for the same price in your own shop as you sell it for in the plugin-store. The root cause of the price difference between the plugin-store and a developers own store is not one-time costs, but provision and VAT. Basically, you can sell the plugin for ~40 less in your own store while still getting the same revenue. And if you sell it for 20% less, you can make more revenue on your own page then in the store while also providing an incentive for custoers to buy on your own site.



    But tbh, a lenghty discussion about price politics is not what this topic was/is about. I'll just wanted to add a quick explanation as to why you can sell plugins for less in your own store, as this was what @ChrisTERiS was wondering about.

    "A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" — Leonard Nimoy

  • @Netzwerg
    @SoftCreatR
    ---------------------------
    To avoid any misunderstanding. I crearly stated "Everybody works on his own way who he thinks that is best for him.". And please allow me to use my own real example. On Nov 2013 I post in Codecanyon marketplace 3 scripts. First bad experiance was that CC staff sets the price and I had to accept it (or to remove the script). Second they're getting 50% of the sale. So for a Multi selection Files+Images Uploader with many additional features they set a price of just $6. Which means just $3 for me :(


    That was the bad side. The good side now: I had around 200 sales per month for this script. So only for this I was earning $600 per month. 4 Months later I decided to remove it from there and start selling it on my site. I set a price $10 which was 100% my profit. In a monthly average I had 15 sales per month. Earnings $150. So, have I earned more, or I lost by removing the scripts from the marketplace? What was best? $600/mo or $150?


    I know what frustating feeling is for the developer when he has to share 50%-50% his hard work with someone who just have a marketplace. But.... But... But.... The end earned money counts and not the feelings.


    Thank you for mentioned the VAT issue. Didn't liked to post it to avoid argues. But talking face to face, what I must say is that all online stores where I bought scripts acting illegally. The law is clear. You can't charge VAT for downloadable products if the customer is living in another country than yours and have a valid EU VAT id. You can charge VAT only to the customers from your country (with or without VAT id), and to customers in other EU countries without VAT id.


    Chris

    • Official Post

    But talking face to face, what I must say is that all online stores where I bought scripts acting illegally. The law is clear. You can't charge VAT for downloadable products if the customer is living in another country than yours and have a valid EU VAT id. You can charge VAT only to the customers from your country (with or without VAT id), and to customers in other EU countries without VAT id.


    We don't charge VAT for non-EU customers and those with a valid VAT ID.

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